Obery Hendricks Transcript

Omkari Williams  0:20  

Hello, and welcome to Stepping Into Truth, the place where we have conversations on social justice and how we all get free. I'm your host Omkari Williams, and I'm really happy that you're here with me today. I've been doing work on activism as a speaker and coach for over eight years. And one of the things I've noticed is that a lot of people feel like they don't know how to do activism or that activism might not be for them, it might just be for people who are famous. But I am here to tell you that that is not the case. We need all hands on deck we need the contribution you can make. And I hope that these podcast episodes inspire you to step out and find your way of making a difference in the world.  

Omkari Williams  1:01  

Today, I'm going to be talking about race, religion and the outsized role that white evangelicals have come to play in our national conversation and what we can do about it. My guest today is Obery M. Hendricks Jr, a visiting scholar in the departments of Religion and African American and African Diasporic Studies at Columbia University. He is the author of several books, including The Politics of Jesus: Rediscovering the True Revolutionary Nature of Jesus's teachings and How They've Been Corrupted, The Universe Bends Towards Justice: Radical Reflections on the Bible, the Church and the Body Politic, a novel, Living Water, and his latest book Christians against Christianity, How Right Wing Evangelicals are Destroying Our Nation and Our Faith.  

Omkari Williams  1:51  

You know, in 2016, right wing evangelicals delivered the White House to Donald Trump. And they would like to do so again in 2024. So I'm happy to be having this opportunity to talk with Obery about how we can make sure that that doesn't happen. And it is my great pleasure to welcome Obery to the podcast.  

Omkari Williams  2:14  

So I am really thrilled to have you here, Obery. Your book was so interesting to me. And I feel that in order to truly understand where we are right now, in the struggle for social justice, we do need to understand the role that evangelicals are playing. And this is exactly what you write about in your new book. So I just want to jump in. And where I want to start as this. The ascension of Donald Trump for me highlighted a truth that I think many Americans had been unaware of, or ignored, which is that for much of evangelical America, the issue is not abortion. The issue is whether American is synonymous with white. And I don't think that there's any way to talk about religion in this country without also talking about race. So can we start there?

Obery Hendricks  3:05  

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. How would you like me to start?

Omkari Williams  3:10  

So, I mean, this is a subject you've studied for a long time. Let me start with this. One of the stories that you tell in the book is about what happened in Prince Edward County, Virginia in 1959, which was a story I actually did not know. And I think that's actually a really good jumping off place. So let's start with that. 

Obery Hendricks  3:31  

Yeah, well, I was born in Farmville, Virginia, Prince Edward County. And in Prince Edward County, the white power structure decided that it did not want to honor Brown versus Board of Education, did not want to integrate the schools. And so rather than integrate them, they closed the public schools down. And they opened what they call Christian academies for the white students. And I guess that I, you know, me and my folks weren't considered Christians. It was Jerry Falwell. And people of that ilk who led that charge. You know, Jerry Falwell was a well known segregationist. And of course, he's one of the founding patrons of the modern, right wing, evangelical movement. 

Obery Hendricks  4:13  

And so, you know, the roots of this modern evangelical movement  really go back to the well the formation, Moral Majority and that kind of thing. The roots really go back. They didn't really start with Prince Edward County, but that was precursor to their racism. And they're conflating whiteness with Christianity because they had the Christian academies really were white academies. But when we talk about the roots of what I would call the modern evangelical, right wing evangelical movement, going back to the the 70s and 80s, you know, with the Moral Majority and all that. 

Obery Hendricks  4:13  

They claim that it started with Roe versus Wade. That the evangelical community was up in arms and upset about Roe vs. Wade. And that this is what really started this right wing evangelical movement that we see as acting in such ugly and heinous ways now. But it really began not with abortion but before that. It began when the Carter administration passed a ruling that educational institutions that got funding from the federal government could not racially discriminate or their funding would be cut. And the famous university in South Carolina, Bob Jones University, segregation University said that no, they were not going to desegregate. And they still wanted to get their funding and it became a cause celebre and these evangelicals came together to support Bob Jones, anti integration effort. And so what we're seeing is that this movement that is so racist today, began literally with his roots in racism, supporting segregation, and opposing desegregation.

Omkari Williams  6:03  

I think the thing that I find so fascinating about the story is they literally shut down public schools for five years. It wasn't like they shut them down for five days or five weeks. They shut them down for five years. So for five years, yeah, black children, brown children, had nowhere to go to school, in that whole county.

Obery Hendricks  6:25  

Yeah, you're right. And I thank you for raising that. I left that out. My family came north to Newark, New Jersey, initially. And I grew up in the north, and I was able to go to school, but I had family. Some of my male cousins who never went back to school, because schools will close for five years, you know, by the time schools will reopen, they were young men, and they already had jobs. So we're talking about a generation of folks, many of whom did not go to school beyond grade school, because of those racist segregationist. Consequently, Farmville, Virginia is the poorest town in the state of Virginia, as a result of the horrors of that desegregation, and that destroys people's life chances, you know, we have folks who died early because they weren't sophisticated enough to know about the kinds of medical treatments they could get. I mean, it's the horror, but this movement that supports Trump, this right wing evangelical movement today, its roots are in that rotten fetid soil that so destroyed Prince Edward County and so many members of my family.

Omkari Williams  7:32  

Yeah, I have to say, it's actually kind of hard for me to wrap my mind around that. Because the notion I mean, people are having complete freak outs, and understandably, about kids not being in school during COVID. And when you think about, just expand that out, not just one year, but 2, 3, 4 or 5 years, and the impact that that has. And it's something that we I don't think really appreciate fully, until we take a moment to step back and think, what would it be like to be in fifth grade, and all of a sudden, five years later, when you should be in 10th grade, you really need to be back in fifth grade? Who's going to go back and start again, most people are not so yeah, many lives were completely devastated by that decision. And it was made with such malice, it's hard to even think of forgiving that decision. It was such a malicious decision. And that actually leads into the whole discussion of immigration and the rights that were granted. 

Obery Hendricks  7:33  

Let me interrupt just one moment. 

Omkari Williams  8:36  

Yeah, sure. 

Obery Hendricks  8:38  

Just one moment, 

Omkari Williams  8:38  

Of course.

Obery Hendricks  8:39  

I want to make it want to make it clear that even though many of these days, right wing evangelicalism will claim that their movement began with Roe versus Wade, some of those who were involved in the movement, make it clear, have said it, it's on record. I quoted in my book, that their movement began opposing desegregation, the anti segregation ruling of the government. They say it, it's on record. So, it's not like it's that you and I are just portraying it that way. They admit that they started out with such horrible racism and they don't decry it.

Omkari Williams  9:15  

And that is the problem. 

Obery Hendricks  9:17  

Mm hmm. 

Omkari Williams  9:18  

It's not only that, they don't decry it because they started it. So of course, yes, these people support it. There's this whole generation that's come after that is still upholding this under false pretenses. And that's what I was sort of just about to get to with the whole discussion of immigration and the rights of immigrants, because one of the precepts of Christianity, and I did not grow up in the church but even I know this, is that you are meant to welcome the stranger you are meant to welcome those in need. You are meant to do what you can to help those in need. And yet, you know, one of the first things that Trump did when he was in office was impose a ban on people coming from majority Muslim countries. And I am at a loss as to give any explanation to that, other than flat out racism and to give any explanation to the way that evangelicals supported that other than flat out racism. Am I missing something here?

Obery Hendricks  10:26  

No, I don't think you're missing anything. Because remember, he began his campaign with racist attacks on immigrants. And he continued his racist attacks, to the point that, as I mentioned, in Christians against Christianity, when they went back and looked at the counties in which Trump had spoken and campaign, that, if I remember correctly, incidents of racial violence had increased by 291%. In each of these campaigns, stops, his main campaign call was against immigrants. Right? 

Omkari Williams  11:03  

Right. 

Obery Hendricks  11:04  

It's hateful, it's racist. He's only talking about Black and Brown immigrants. He said he'd rather have more folks from Norway. 

Omkari Williams  11:12  

Right. 

Obery Hendricks  11:13  

You know, and in New York City where folks, you know, I mean, a lot of crazy stuff goes on in New York City, but it's equal opportunity, crazy, but since Trump's talking about the China virus, and all that, you know, Asians have been attacked, and numbers that we, you know, we haven't seen for many years, it's all racial, and not only is it racist, but these folk who claim to be biblical Christians. They are transgressing one of the most basic precepts of the biblical witness from the beginning to the end of the Bible, and that is to look out for immigrants, to welcome them, to take care of them. Tithing was instituted, one of the reasons was to help take care of immigrants, they call them "ger", translated strangers, but it means immigrants. And so you know, they're not doing anything. I mean, there's nothing about the way they treat immigrants, that is morally or ethically supportable. And biblically, it's just a major, major sin.

Omkari Williams  12:21  

I find it kind of unbelievable, because here we are, in this time, where you see these mega churches and you see, you know, 10,000 people at a service on a Sunday, and they are supposedly listening to the preacher tell the Word of God and interpret the Word of God. And yet, what they leave with is that America is for people who look exactly like them believe exactly like them and do exactly like them. And that would be bad enough, but I am concerned that we are losing the separation of church and state because you see, this whole thing expanded into Congress, you hear congress people talk about the country and what the country should look like and who's legitimate and who's illegitimate. Is this something that you have observed in your work in your research that church and state separation seems to be getting a little bit muddled?

Obery Hendricks  13:24  

Well, for right wing evangelicalism, as I have talked about throughout my book, Christians against Christianity, they're really Christian supremacists. They believe that the Bible, not just the Bible, but Christianity should be the basis for all policies. But not just Christianity, but their particular brand of Christianity. So more than muddled. It's almost as if they want a theocracy. And, in fact, you know, some of the right wing evangelicals said they don't believe in democracy. I believe that John MacArthur who claims to be a scholar, and has such a big following, I believe he said something like that recently that he doesn't really believe in democracy, you know, that it's more important what the Bible says. And that's problematic, because it comes down to who becomes the interpreter of the Bible. 

Omkari Williams  14:19  

Exactly. 

Obery Hendricks  14:21  

And for them, they are the interpreters. They are the only ones who can say what's, what's biblical and what's not. And the problem with that is that these folk, the right wing evangelicals, are not just Christians of faith, they're more Christians of ideology, ideological Christians, in other words, what they sanctify and accept this Christianity is what supports their interests and their desires. And what goes against that the interest and the desires they ignore, or they misconstrue or misportray, often, purposely and maliciously, so it couldn't be worse. Well, it could be worse, it wouldn't be a lot worse, if the demonic force itself got involved and took over their movement, which might be the case anyway,

Omkari Williams  15:07  

I'm just gonna say I'm not sure that that hasn't actually happened. But something I find really interesting is when people talk about evangelicalism, they're really in this case, right wing evangelicals, they're really specifically talking about white people. Because there is definitely a Black evangelical movement. There are definitely evangelicals of color. But when we're talking about this kind of thing, we're specifically talking about white people who have decided that what America needs to look like is a white society, and that everyone else is going to come second and be sort of subject to the whims of those white leaders. And I'm curious as to is there still a white, largely white evangelical church that is not off that deep end? That is not sort of steeped in racism? Or is this really what the white evangelical churches now?

Obery Hendricks  16:11  

Yeah, well, I want to make sure I specify, like I say, in the subtitle of the book, we're talking about right wing evangelicals, you know, there are white evangelicals who are are progressive. Let's, you know, take Sojourners, for instance, Jim Wallace, and the number of people worked with him. They are politically left leaning evangelicals, they might be in a minority, but there are a substantial number of them, I believe. But the overwhelming number, of course of evangelicals are a right wing, you know, the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest, right, the largest, you know, they're right wing. S,o so largely when we talk about evangelicals a day, unfortunately, we're mostly talking about right wing evangelicals, you know, a lot of left leaning ones, more progressive ones, are trying to decide whether they should jettison the term evangelical or not. I don't know, I think they should, because the term angelical is tainted for years and years to come by hatred, and homophobia, and xenophobia, and racism.

Omkari Williams  17:16  

I'm wondering how we get free of all of this, because, I mean, we see the problem, we see that there is this group of people who, and I think it's largely out of fear, a fear of losing power, fear of losing status, fear of losing what they perceive to be their place in the society. But whatever the case, there's this group of people who are very committed to, not even things going back to the way they were, because this isn't how things were, but things being a certain specific way that has a very hierarchical nature to it. And I'm wondering, how do we sort of get free of this? I mean, because if what they were doing only was going to impact those in the evangelical church, I would say peace out, do your thing, you know, fine. But since what they're doing impacts me and my family and my friends and all the other people around who don't share these, frankly, perverted interpretations. We need to be in motion to respond. So what do you think that those of us who find that attitude, reprehensible, how do we combat this trend?

Obery Hendricks  18:45  

I think there are a couple things intrinsically looking at what we can and must do. First, go back the first things first. And that is to go back to the source. And that's the biblical narrative, and become clear on what the gospel tells us to do. And, you know, I say, go back. The first thing is, what did Jesus tell us are the most important commandments. Well, he said, they're equally important, loving, our Lord our God, all the heart, soul, mind and strength, and equal to that in importance, on the same level of importance is loving our neighbor as ourselves. 

Obery Hendricks  19:24  

And loving our neighbor as ourselves. It has such profound implications politically and socially and economically. And so first we look at that we are supposed to want for our neighbors, the same goods and resources and all the good things and the freedom and all that life that we want for ourselves and our own loved ones. Well, then that's, that's an important core principle that we move from right. And then we look at the mode of judgment that Jesus gave us, that God would apply to us and so concomitantly, we should apply to ourselves and others. And that's an Matthew 25:31 to 46. And you know, as you've done it to the least of these, you've done it to me as you haven't done it the least of these as you haven't helpful as you haven't tried to feed the hungry and clothe the naked, and look out for those who are without, to the extent that you haven't done that it says you're going to go to hell. That's what the narrative says. 

Obery Hendricks  20:20  

The point being that, what we're told is that we are supposed to look out for our neighbors to try to build a healthy and safe society that's concerned about the common good, then we have a basis for vision, then we have a basis for policy, evaluation and prescription. And then I think we have to look outward, and start challenging others throughout the church with this information with this vision, right, but do it actively and fearlessly. And that means that when we hear stupid stuff, or lying stuff, we must stand up and call it stupid and lying and false and anti Christian. And we don't do that. 

Obery Hendricks  21:01  

So these terrible, destructive lying malicious voices, that's support a piece of trash like Donald Trump, they have gone relatively unopposed. I mean, if there's been opposition now, but not loud opposition, I mean, our denominations I'm African Methodist, Episcopal, and you know, AMEs, we have a great denomination, and you know, folk do things. But we haven't shouted loudly enough against the stuff that's going down, you know. So I guess what I'm saying is, the church must assume the responsibility that the gospel places upon it, to try to build a just and healthy world. Start from the beginning the scriptures and move from there, and we're not doing that. And we're losing this fight against these forces of evil, because we we refuse to fully assume our responsibility to struggle against this scheme.

Omkari Williams  21:59  

That is so interesting, because as I said, I wasn't raised in the church. So my experience is more of hearing people who were raised in the church say something, and trying to have a conversation with them about how does that actually make sense with all these other pieces of the Bible that even I, as someone not exceptionally familiar with the Bible I'm aware of. I mean, I know that Jesus said that to love your neighbor as yourself was an equally important commandment. Even I know that. And I feel like that's sort of shown up in secular spaces, in this last couple of years, especially during the pandemic, in people really working within their communities to support people who were struggling, and to sort of fill the gap that government wasn't filling. And I'm curious as to why the church has been so silent. I mean, you clearly are very passionate about that. And I'm surprised because the church seems like the first place that would stand up and say, Oh, no, no, no, no, this is not acceptable. And yet, you're not wrong when you say that we're not hearing those voices. So why do you think that is? And what's the remedy? 

Obery Hendricks  23:23  

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, a lot of it is like the various reasons a lot of churches seem to think that first responsibilities, institutional maintenance, you know, so I'm the very church concerned.

Omkari Williams  23:34  

But isn't the point of church to serve your community? 

Obery Hendricks  23:39  

Well, yeah, it's supposed to be, I think there are a lot of theological problems. For one thing, Jesus said, follow me. He didn't say, worship me, worship God. He said, follow me. And that that implies action. You know, if you're going to follow what someone says, and does, you know, that means you, you're acting, you're doing stuff? Well, to the extent that they worship Jesus, you can't follow a god someone that you worship. I mean, there's no bridge between us in them. So that sort of leaves you sort of standing, it doesn't put any, any responsibility upon one, you know, to the common good. 

Obery Hendricks  24:15  

But if theologically, one has in mind when he says to follow me, then we look at his teachings and his model as a basis for movement. But many churches don't do that. If I had to identify one or two most basic problems, I guess, those are the problems focused on church, the institutional maintenance of the church as four walls. And I guess there's just so much that's wrong there. I think that if I could boil it down to one thing, it comes down to a lack of vision. 

Obery Hendricks  24:45  

You know, they always say in the churches, we hear it, quoted, you know, my people perish for lack of vision and this than the other. Well, how many churches have a vision how many denominations have a vision of the kind of world that we're supposed to be working toward? There's no vision for that there's a vision on how they should worship on Sunday, how they should do this didn't do that in the oven. But as for what kind of worlds to be working toward what kind of political economy should be working toward? What kind of educational system? What kind of social services? What do we want our world to look like? How are we even thinking about working to build a just world? And you ask, I would suggest you ask 99% of pastors, and they can't really say other than, well, you know, we're, we're looking for the kingdom of God, and His Kingdom is not on Earth or something like that. You see, I'm saying no vision. We don't know what we're working toward. 

Obery Hendricks  25:41  

So we're just standing in place. And churches don't even react in an ad hoc fashion to most stuff. They might decry what happens, but few of them act, they don't get out and do anything. And I think that things haven't changed much since Martin Luther King invited 103 pastors to meet in Virginia to discuss the Poor People's Campaign that he was trying to mount. And zero pastors came to the meeting. He invited 103 to help work on this Poor People's Campaign. And not one pastor came. I think that really is emblematic of, that's representative, of the mindset of the church. And that's why it burns me up, when I hear folks saying, Well, you know, the tradition of the Black church is to fight for liberation. Well, there have been a few, a handful, but mostly there, they stay within the four walls, and they might not like what's going on, but they don't get out and do a whole lot about it. And that's why we have millions and millions of people in our churches, and the forces of evil are overrunning our country, and they're not being really opposed to the extent that they should be in any way. 

Omkari Williams  26:49  

That is fascinating, because I erroneously, obviously, assumed that pastors and Black churches were considerably more active than they are. I mean, I know of a Dr. Barber who is very outspoken and walks the talk, at least that's how it looks to me from the outside. But I sort of had made an assumption that that was more than norm than the exception. And clearly what you're saying is no, he is the exception, not the rule.

Obery Hendricks  27:23  

No, no, they are exceptions. You know, like, Dr. Freddie Haynes in Dallas folk like that. I mean, they they are activists around the country. Yes. In the Samuel Proctor conference, Dr. Ivan Carruthers in Chicago, I mean, you know, there are activists. Well, we know there are Black evangelicals, right. And the Samuel Proctor conference is, I'd say is evangelical and very much active. But on the other hand, you have people like TD Jakes who was on the cover of Time Magazine, he has his broad reach, and what the heck have we seen him do? 

Omkari Williams  27:37  

Right. 

Obery Hendricks  27:37  

In opposition to this great evil that's overtaking? 

Obery Hendricks  27:58  

So your folk can talk about what they want. But most Black pastors, most Black churches are not involved. That doesn't mean that they're not upset about it. Maybe they don't know how to move forward. But the fact still remains that they're not mounting the kind of opposition that they can. If I might say one more thing, Reverend Al Sharpton, after he was criticized by the defense at the Ahmaud Arbery trial, he called for 100 pastors to show up, I believe 300 pastors showed up. You know, I thought that was okay. But you know, they were gone the next day, and they weren't there the day before. And many of them were, you know, very thrilled about it. Personally, it didn't mean a whole lot to me. Because that's not a movement.

Omkari Williams  28:41  

Right.

Obery Hendricks  28:41  

That's not sustained opposition.

Omkari Williams  28:44  

Right. And I think you're raising a really good point here, which is not just in the churches, but just in general for each of us as individuals is standing up and looking at what's happening and then saying, and what exactly am I doing in opposition to this, and not just having a conversation with your friend, and then thinking that you've done something. Or posting a like on Instagram and thinking that that actually moves the needle. I mean, I think that the challenge here for all of us is to find our way into action to find our way to stand up and say, I'm going to take this little piece of this huge problem. And I'm just going to keep at it like a dog with a bone until I make a difference.

Obery Hendricks  29:32  

Yes, yes. I think you're so right. And that is not happening. And so what we see often is that the church unfortunately, the church written large, can be an impediment you know, to real to justice making and to fighting for a more ethical and healthy and humane society.

Omkari Williams  29:52  

And I think that that's why we often don't see groups like Black Lives Matter be particularly affiliated with the church, although, you know, it seems like there should be a natural affinity there. And there should be a natural desire to come together and coordinate and work together. But I think that, especially for a younger generation, they look at the church and say, Well, what have you been doing? You've been doing nothing. And you know, I'm just going to go and keep working over here, because you're not doing anything over here.

Obery Hendricks  30:25  

Yes, right. And another part of that, though, is that preachers think that they should always be in the lead. That's one of the dangers of the Black church pastorate, they feel they always have to be the leader. And even though many of them are not highly, spiritually evolved, you know, they feel the need to play the role of the spiritual leader. And you know, these young people aren't fooled. And there's another part of it, many pastors that I'm speaking to the Black church, now applies, to white church as well I suppose, aren't really well informed, Don't take the time to be really well informed about what's going on. And what do I mean by that? How often do we hear any critique of a political economy? Does anyone ever mention the horrors of capitalism, for instance, right? You know, we don't hear that. Everyone who claims to be a leader in the community, particularly religious leaders, who claim to be shepherds of a flock, they should be reading two, three newspapers a da., Certainly must be reading The Wall Street Journal. It's horrible to read, I hate it, but I read it every day, we need to know what's going on. And they should be involved. 

Obery Hendricks  31:31  

Like in other important professions, there should be continuing education. The Hampton ministers conference that's held every June in Hampton, Virginia, that began at a time when many Black religious leaders didn't have access to college or seminary education. So this was an educational conference that was held every year. And ministers came there to hear lectures and to be tutored and all that kind of thing is wonderful. What happens now is turn to largely a preaching convention. There's not this emphasis on studying, it bothers me because I look at Muslims, Muslims have this tradition of study, okay, all the time. Look at Jews, they have this tradition of study and Christianity? No, no, we come listen to the preacher. And preachers don't have a tradition of of study, how can you have a be a full time and you don't take time to learn the biblical languages so you can read the Bible for yourself. I mean you shouldn't just leave it to biblical scholars like me, you go to seminary, it's not hard to learn Hebrew and Greek. I mean, well, it's not easy, but it's not hard. (laughter)

Omkari Williams  32:36  

It's doable. 

Obery Hendricks  32:38  

Yeah, if you want to do it, yeah, yeah. And so they end up saying, you know, repeating things that are ridiculous. And they continue using things like the King James Version of the Bible, that is, you know, that is ethnocentric, racist, has 6000 translation mistakes, it's sexist. And so the people get misled by these folks who, in essence, are being paid to mislead them, in some ways, I wanna make that clear, in some ways.

Omkari Williams  33:03  

Right, right. Well, I think that what you're saying is actually kind of the perfect way to end this conversation. Because I think that everything you're saying about pastors in the Black evangelical church, in some ways just applies to each of us as individuals, we should be keeping up with the news. I mean, we should be informing ourselves about what is happening in the world, we should be looking at the larger scope of it so that we're looking at capitalism and how it informs the decisions that are being made and how those decisions impact the people in our communities. We should be looking at all of these things, so that we can actually focus our actions appropriately. So that we can say, Okay, this is where I'm putting my attention. And I understand this, and I'm going to advocate for this. And when someone says something about this that is absurd I'm going to have the information to come back and say, Okay, now, let me explain to you where you have this wrong. 

Obery Hendricks  34:05  

Yeah. 

Omkari Williams  34:05  

So I think that that's really important, especially because we are a society where church plays, to me, an outsized role. And if it's going to play an outsized role, then at least let it be playing an outsized role from a place of accuracy and decency and truth. So…

Obery Hendricks  34:25  

Yes, yes. And let me say this, I want to make something clear. I'm ordained in the AME church. And, you know, I want to make it clear even though I have critiques, strong critiques to offer, I think it's also important to say that the Black church continues, as you just said, it is continues to play such an important role for Black people. Its empathic role, its pastoral role and the support it gives for for the congregational spiritual worship. These things are very important in the church. Black church is the only place where many many, many people can really be treated like somebody.

Omkari Williams  35:00  

Yes. 

Obery Hendricks  35:00  

So, Black church is very important. My critique is not about the existence of the Black church but it is about the role that it's not fully fulfilling. The role that it should fulfill in building a just world and a just society. I think that it can, I think that it's starting to wake up like much of America is now when they're seeing how far we are along on the road to sustain the more sustained evil. So I just want to make that clear, I don't reject the Black church at all, I embrace it. But because I am an insider, and the church has supported me become a biblical scholar, actually, I'm the most widely read, Black biblical scholar in America today, largely because of the support I've gotten from the AME church, and the Black church. Because of that I have a responsibility... 

Omkari Williams  35:50  

Yes. 

Obery Hendricks  35:50  

to speak up. And that's why I speak as I do not because I reject it, but because I love it. And we have to hold the things and the people that we love to account the same way we hold ourselves to account.

Omkari Williams  36:02  

I could not agree more, I actually think that we need the structures around us, whether it be the church or just our community groups, to help us stay on the path because it's easy for us to get off in one direction or another. And it's the people around us who speak the truth to us, who keep us on that path of doing the right thing for the right reason, in the right way. And I'm so grateful to have had this opportunity to speak with you and to just have you talk about from such a deep personal place, your understanding of this issue, and, and why it is really important. I mean, 2024 is coming up real quick. And we need to get our arms around this so that we don't wind up with another four years of Donald Trump in the White House, because that would be, I believe, ultimately disastrous for the country.

Obery Hendricks  37:01  

And that's one of the reasons why I've written Christians against Christianity to try to wake folk up so we won't make the same mistake again. 

Omkari Williams  37:09  

Yes. 

Obery Hendricks  37:10  

And as you know, I I wear him out in the book,

Omkari Williams  37:13  

Justifiably and I was totally there for it. Let me just say, you basically said everything that I've been thinking, and I appreciated it deeply. So this has been such a pleasure. I'm so happy to have had the chance to speak with you.

Obery Hendricks  37:31  

Thank you. Yes, but let's hold up the book Christians against Christianity.

Omkari Williams  37:34  

There will be a link to it in the Episode Notes, and people can go out and find it for themselves. And it's a really interesting read. And it's really important right now at this moment in time in American history. So yeah, we will be lifting that book up. Thank you.

Obery Hendricks  37:52  

It's been a pleasure, really a pleasure.

Omkari Williams  37:54  

Thank you. Religion is one of those subjects that we are told to stay away from at family dinners along with money and sex. But religion really informs so much of the society in the United States right now and has for our entire history. We can't just ignore it. We need to pay attention. We need to pay attention to where it's taking us down a dangerous path, and where we need to step up and say, No, this is not the intention. 

Omkari Williams  38:26  

So thank you so much for listening. I hope that this conversation has inspired you to think about the place that religion is coming to hold in our society in a different way and to inspire you to take action, to be more communal, to be less dogmatic, to find ways of confronting the challenges that this rise of white evangelicalism is really presenting us with. So again, thank you so much for listening. I'll be back with another episode of Stepping Into Truth very soon. And until then, remember that change starts with sharing our stories. So keep sharing yours.