Will Jawando transcript

Will Jawando 0:00

There's a general unmooring that I think we as black Americans have because our origins story was intentionally ripped away from us. And we weren't taught about it. And again, we're having a conversation and a fight now can we talk about what has happened?

Omkari Williams 0:35

Hello, and welcome to stepping into truth, conversations on race and how we all get free. I'm your host Omkari Williams, and I am really pleased that you're here with me today. As a speaker and a coach on activism and a writer, I've been working to make activism irresistible for over 10 years. If you want to move the world towards justice, but feel like activism is loud or for people you see in the news, you're in the right place. There are many paths of activism and there is a path that is perfect for you. We need your contribution, no matter how small you might feel it is. My guest today has taken a direct path to making the world a more just place. Will Jawando is an attorney and activist, a community leader and a council member in Montgomery County, Maryland, a diverse community of more than 1 million residents, called the progressive leader we need by the late Congressman John Lewis Jawando has worked with Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Senator Sherrod Brown, and President Barack Obama. His writing has appeared in The Washington Post, The Root and on BET.com. And his work has been featured in The New York Times, New York Magazine and on NPR, NBC News, and M. T. V. He regularly appears on CNN, MSNBC, and other media outlets. And it is my great pleasure to welcome Will to the podcast. Will, I am so glad that you are here with me today.

Will Jawando 2:08

It's great to be with you. I'm great. Thanks for having me.

Omkari Williams 2:11

Absolutely. Your book is beautiful. It's just this really lovely exploration of what it actually means to be a father. And I want to explore that in a whole bunch of different ways. But where I'd like to start is this. Throughout your book, the thing that kept resonating for me was the importance of identity. And you talk about finding your identity through mentorship, and the fathering that you received from your seven black fathers? Would you get us started by talking about identity and its significance in your life?

Will Jawando 2:49

Sure, yeah. It's it's one of those, I think, through lines, not only in my book, and in my story, but all of us are dealing with who we are, where we come from, how we measure those things, so to speak. And we have multiple kind of forms and facets to our identity. And I explore in this book, really the journey of my Nigerian heritage, that part of my identity, my black American identity, and I'm a sociology major in college, and became a civil rights lawyer. But so much of how we perceive ourselves is impacted by how the world perceives us. And being the son of a white mother from Kansas and a Nigerian father presenting to most people as African American. I was always trying to figure out my place, whether I was one of only people that look like me in the setting, like it wasn't my early elementary years, or whether I was in other settings where I was with other kids who were seemingly more down or black than I was right. You know, I was always trying to figure that out. And then trying to just connect to my cultural heritage and identity on both sides, really. So I think the absence of my father, it makes the search for identity more acute on my black Nigerian side, because my mother is a constant throughout my life. And so that type of identity, but also my identity as a young man and as an athlete, as a student, and then obviously, ultimately, as a son, and as a father myself. That's why we explore in this book in different ways. And so I think identity is a really important thru line. I could keep going. But I'm glad that you picked that up.

Omkari Williams 4:37

Yeah, it's very profound throughout the entire book. And the reason that I wanted to start there is because I think that in this society in particular, we're often encouraged to sort of focus very narrowly, and that that can really get in the way. And it seems to me also that there's A paradox when we look at identity in the context of social justice work, which is the work that you do, and we're trying to both bring our unique experiences to bear on decisions that are made and on how we function as a society, and at the same time, we're trying to be fully a part of the society that doesn't always make room for complex identity. So I'm curious as to how you've sort of navigated bringing your identity into the work that you do without it becoming a narrowing part of your focus?

Will Jawando 5:39

Yeah, that's a great question. There's this term that I really abhor “identity politics”, that's thrown around and has been weaponized and used by Democrats, Republicans, and by so many, to kind of talk about this, I think, what is an appropriate grounding? You know, I think you get good policy, you get good outcomes, you get good social interaction, when decisions about how we interact with one another, the laws and priorities of our society are made by a diverse group of people that represent the population. And that's messy, and we all have different experiences. But part of that is bringing your identity and life experience, both lived and personal to the table. And so for some, that seemed as a negative thing, you know, people want to kind of whitewash that, so to speak. So I start by answering your question by saying, I think it's important to bring your full self and to have your identity and form, whatever it is your work.

You know, I'm a civil rights lawyer, I'm an elected official. And so I err on the side of you should bring that to the table. Because I do think there's significant pushback, in some circles and in our society today about, well, that's not necessary, just put that to the side. And let's just talk about this issue. But you can't talk about this issue unless you are talking about the full context. And part of the full context of America is the various diverse identities and experiences that we all bring to the table. And as a Black person, a person of color, as a Black man, that is fraught with many, it's an intertwined with the underpinnings of this nation, and as a nation born of chattel slavery and economic system on the back of that, right, and all that that means all that was required to uphold that for generations. And I think that I tried to bring that full self. But I also try to the other part of your question to be open and deeply empathetic to other people's experiences, and be open to understanding and changing my point of view and realizing that my experience, and my identity is not the only identity here, in the room, whatever the room is. But I do think if we're going to err on the side of which should be on bringing your full self, and particularly as Black people, particularly as Black men, there has been hundreds of years of demonization of dehumanization, of caricatures, and stereotypes that have been intentionally placed on us to devalue and tear apart and to put in its place the Black community as a whole. So I think anytime we're bringing our full self, it's correcting for 500 plus years of intentionality in the other direction. So I think I tend to err on that side, but also being open to hearing and feeling and listening to other people's experiences and identity. I think that's important, we should bring that to the table, but also look at facts and look at the data and all those things. But I hope that answers your question

Omkari Williams 8:37

It does, and I agree, and I think that there's an underlying reluctance to have deep meaningful conversations, that gets in the way of this process. Because to do that, we have to be very vulnerable. And that, again, is not a quality that is exactly held up in high esteem. And in our society. Toughness is held in high esteem, but vulnerability is not, but to have conversations about our identities or our place in the world, or how the structures that we exist within have been created and where they need to change that requires something that I think we don't do enough of in this country, which is being open and willing to listen. And it's one of the things I really appreciated about your book, because there's so many points where you talk to have experiences that made me remember things from my own childhood and watching my brothers and one of the things that you write about, and it's really, it's a really very beautiful section is your relationship with your first black teacher, Mr. Williams, no relation to me. And your experiences with him were really profound. And it feels so important to me that you had that opportunity as a little Black boy in elementary school fourth grade. First time you had a Black teacher and a Black male teacher, no less. So I would really love for you to talk about that. But also why you feel it's so important that more black men go into teaching, particularly in elementary school.

Will Jawando 10:16

Yes, Mr. Williams is, you know, I don't have a favorite black father in the book. But he is certainly many people's favorite that I have here with people who have read the book. And he's almost a kind of a mythic superhero like figure in my life when he enters. My parents had divorced. Shortly before I met Mr. Williams. As you know, Joseph Jacob, my stepfather is the first chapter. And as the first black man that I meet my stepfather now 30 plus years, who shows me love and attention and really meets me at a critical point. But Mr. Williams is right there. He's at a point in time where he walks in the classroom and wearing a suit and tie and mini Afro and his briefcase. And he just, it's something I've never seen before. And I just can't overstate the power of just the example of who he was and how he carried himself and where he was, you know, in a position of authority to teach this class, and how he was dressed in the care he took with the words he used, and how he encouraged us to interact and rely on each other as a mostly Black and brown classroom and work together, just coming off of a time where I'd come out of this horrible experience at an all white Catholic school in second and third grade where I was had, you know, many, many traumatic experiences, that he was a breath of fresh air, and not just to me to the entire class.

And even as I was writing this book, you know, unfortunately, I would never see Mr. Williams again, I also talked about how I only knew him nine months, and at the time, I didn't know his first name, I didn't learn it until 30 plus years later, when I'm researching this book, find out more about him and his history. His name was Charles “Chuck” Williams, and he was an Army veteran, he flew helicopters in Vietnam, none of this is actually in the book. So I'll probably have to write more about him at some point. But he not only taught us math, he taught us how to work together and rely on our own self confidence in building that and working together as a team. And helped me deal with bullying at the time. And just was an example it physically gave me my first tie. Taught me how to tie it, which was not just big in the moment of actually giving me a tie, but it was representative of professionalism and moving to a new step in my life and learning how to operate in a world. He was the first person I saw code switch which I described that in the book when he's talking to one of our janitors about a game that you know, the night before, and I and he was always very intentional with his English and corrected us in the class in grammar, but I saw him using slang. And I didn't understand obviously, I was shocked, I was like Mr. Williams.

But it's okay to be our full selves. And so let your hair down, so to speak. And so he was transformative in that very short period of time. And you know, the sociological education policy attorney side of me knows now as a, as an adult, as a professional, that the research is borne out that it wouldn't be a Black student as a Black teacher. And those early elementary years, it has astronomical impact on their performance and academic performance. Later in life in their career, nothing can really elevate that. It also he was important in the sense that just as a, something to aspire to, he was the first person I saw that I that I want to be like that, and that someone that looked like me. And we know that, for example, most teachers, black male teachers are really unicorns. They're only 2% of the teaching profession. And so one of the call to actions and the book is how we need to, because of the impact and power, they can have demonstrated through my interaction with Mr. Williams, but certainly not exclusive to me, he would be the only Black male teacher I would ever have in my academic career. And the fact that we need to create programs and policies and retention strategies and recruitment strategies to bring more of these unicorns into the classroom for a population that desperately needs them.

Omkari Williams 14:19

I just want to point out that when you're in fourth grade, nine months is a huge percentage of your life. Right? You know, so it's like, yeah, it was only nine months, and that's from this vantage point. But from that vantage point, it is such a huge part of your life. And it's certainly such a huge part of your conscious aware of remembered life, right that I can see how that impact would compound later on and how having someone who cares that much for their students being that present for them, makes a difference down the road and thank you for sharing his story because it really, it's really a beautiful story.

Will Jawando 15:04

I appreciate that. That's such a good point. I'm so so but I'm gonna use that one next in my future talks, you brought that up like your nine ish. Yeah, in fourth grade, you know, and, honestly is a 10th of your life.

Omkari Williams 15:16

And it's more when you consider that you'd probably don't remember anything before, too. So you're really talking about the seven year stretch and nine months is so huge. And that, you know, it's like birthdays now come every 20 minutes as far as I can tell. Back in those days, they were years apart. So you wrote a sentence in your book that I wrote down, and then I added something to my notes, and you wrote, the Black experience deserves to be seen. And I added, and it is not monolithic. And I would love to talk about that. Because both things are true. And neither gets the attention. I think that they deserve. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm curious, because you chose your stories very carefully. And you chose the words in this book very carefully. So when you wrote the Black experience deserves to be seen. What was the impetus for that?

Will Jawando 16:19

Yeah, great question. One of my goals here and in telling my story. Is that one, you know, to the point of your question, and I think this was actually what Michael Eric Dyson said about the book, there's not nearly enough written about the inner lives of black folks, I think was something his quote, I think, which is related to this in that one, there's been so many lies, and there's so many tropes and stereotypes about who we are as black people. There's an exercise done in racial equity trainings, and I've done many areas, trainings, and it's in vogue now to do them. And it's just good. We want it to happen, where you put kind of the whiteboards up on the wall, all these white posted notes, the big post notes, and they give everyone a marker. If you're in a room with 30, you say go up. And this is for black people. This is for white people. This is for Asian people, this is for Latino people. And one of the exercises says go up there and write down anything you've ever heard about those people. You don't have to necessarily believe it. But what you've heard, and every time I've seen this done, the Black paper is overflowing, there's things falling off. And most of its negative, violent, aggressive, angry, stupid, whatever, go down the list, the things that have been intentionally drowned into and beat into and put in textbooks and eugenics go down the list for hundreds of views. And the white is less and it's mostly positive. There's some bad things for Latino and mostly immigration stuff.

And then there's the model minority on the age and you know, there's things on every list, but the Black one is overflowing whether people think they believe these things or not. So, one, we are counteracting that, yes, people say we are and that is still not by us, right? But that has seeped into us. Yes, and been perpetuated and used. And so I wanted to offer a different view that particularly of Black men and boys, as 50% of the Black community, and who are the kind of but have many of these stereotypes and tropes. And try to peel that back and show the diversity to your other point and complexity of our different stories and relationships.

There's a Black American story here, there's a Black immigrant story here. There's a fathers and sons story here, and what that means in our community and all communities, but particularly in our community, the breadth and depth, and explore expansive view that I tried to paint here of the Black father son relationship, right, which is also a relationship fraught with stereotype and also actual factual challenges of you know, because of mass incarceration and other things. And so I think I wanted to show a fuller, deeper picture and a more vulnerable picture, I think there's nothing that makes me sad, or that when black men and boys Harden, and aren't open as a defense mechanism, mostly open to talking about who they are, and what they aspire to be, and in love and hurt and pain and joy. There's just not a lot of that. And I wanted to try to create a window into that through the lens of my life and these relationships.

Omkari Williams 19:35

I really appreciate that. And I really appreciate what you said about how it seeps into us because it does, and there's no way it can't and I think that something that is often dismissed is the cost of that seepage and what it does to someone to hear these things even if you know that they are not true if you know That intellectually that they are not true, even if you know it emotionally that they are not true. But to hear these negative things over and over it erodes something in us. And to defend against that takes so much energy. And it also takes community and a willingness to be vulnerable. But it feels like there's a much better use of our energy and our life than defending against that. It really touched me when you said that, and I think you've heard that. Thank you.

So let me shift gears here to your seriously famous one of the seriously famous seven fathers here. And you reference Barack Obama, who in his 2004, democratic national convention speech said, we must eradicate the idea that a black youth with a book is acting white. And I remember that speech. And I remember those words, because I grew up in a family that revered books, you got in more trouble for abusing a book than you did for getting in a fight with your sibling? Not even kidding. And so when I heard him say those words, I thought, first off, it was like I exhaled? Yes, yes, this is so true. And when I read them in your book, you know, I'd sort of forgotten them. It's been almost 20 years now, hard to even imagine that,

Will Jawando

That's insane.

Omkari Williams

I mean, it really is. But what it made me think of as I was reading your book was, how we pigeonhole entire groups of people, and how that is so toxic, and so crushing of possibilities. So you as a little Black boy, who, yes, you play basketball, and you did other things, but you were also reasonably good student, right? And you liked to read and you'd like to do those things. And you were fascinated by the people at the place your mom worked, which was a media outlet, so all about reading. And I just wonder when you heard those words in 2004? How did they land for you?

Will Jawando 22:22

Oh, it was a combination of feelings. I similarly felt like someone articulated, you know, something that I felt deeply. And to your point, I think the reason I constantly tell that story, and I was intentional about including the book, because it was something I had never heard anyone say, in a public forum. It also put it so concisely. Yeah, you know, just kind of sum it up. But it's also something that was so really almost mainstream, if you're a black person who was educated. I mean, that is not a new phenomenon. You know, go back to Dubois and others, you know, there was always a stream of, oh, you uppity you're trying to be like the white man, by speaking correctly or being educated, which is just the flip side of the intentionality of, of racism and dehumanization. And us as a people to suggest that being intelligent, was somehow being white. It's one of the biggest, oldest slides, but something that doesn't really get discussed in general conversations, right. And for that line, it was so unique to me, and I'm sure to others, I'm sure there's some people that watch that was like, What are you talking about? Like, what does that even mean? Or is it a throwaway line or something they don't even remember. Whereas for me, it was one of the most impactful things he said that night. So I think that it hit me hard. I think one of Obama's great strengths is his empathy, to be able to put himself in other people's shoes, which he does throughout that whole speech. Are you a Jewish kid, I say in the book on Brooklyn, or a mixed kid from DC like me, you felt like he knew who you were, and could relate to your story. And I think that was an example of that.

Omkari Williams 24:04

I so agree. And I remember if I had a dime for every time, you know, it stopped at some point because it became so politically incorrect to say this, but for every time someone said to me, Oh, you speak so well, where did you learn to speak? Like from my parents? And these were lovely people who did not hear what they were saying. Yeah, and did not pay a compliment. They thought they were complimenting me and it was so offensive and so painful in ways that I really couldn't articulate. And so hearing him say that that day, started to begin to heal something I think that had been there and just this little tiny wound that had been sitting there for many, many years. And it was a powerful moment. It truly was.

Will Jawando 24:59

If you think About the insidious nature of that statement that he was critiquing, because many of us, myself included, I was not immune from this at some points tried to doll ourselves or, or dim my light, or not act as intellectually curious in certain settings in order to fit in with other black people. And yes, also not an uncommon thing. And you think about how just horrible that is that, that that's the way that this racism has operated, yes. Then when you trail back that part of the chattel slavery, the intentionality was that we could not read that they didn't want us to read, they didn't want us to learn because they knew the power of it.

Omkari Williams 25:39

It was illegal to teach a slave to read was actually illegal. And when people talk about slavery, I like them to remember that because it takes any pretense of helping people who were so incapable of taking care of themselves. It takes that away, it's like, oh, no, you actually were afraid of the power that reading would give this group of people that you have enslaved. And so I like to remind people that they did not want the enslaved to learn to read. And that is an indictment of the system. But it's also, I think, an indictment of where we are now that we're still having a conversation about are we even going to have a conversation about this, right? Like, exactly right. Like I thought that ship had sailed, but apparently it's back in port. So here we are. There's a word in your book that you use, and the word is unmoored. And when I read that word, I really felt it in my soul. Because I think it very accurately describes the experience of many black people, especially children, especially immigrants. And that feeling of being unmoored in the place where you live, that follows us through our entire lives if we don't address it. And I'm curious about why you chose that specific word and how you feel we can change that experience that so many black people have, I still think now a feeling unmoored in this country.

Will Jawando 27:26

It's a great question. And I felt unmoored in multiple settings. There's a general unmooring that I think we as black Americans have, because our origins story was intentionally ripped away from us, and we weren't taught about it. And again, we're having a conversation and a fight now can we talk about what has happened, and also the history of us pri 500 years ago, the history of us on the continent of Africa and everything that goes along with what has been said about us here, you know, there's, there's an obvious even a more intentional effort to talk about the continent of Africa in a bad light. And so there's that general unmooring as black Americans, but then there's also and we have compensated with that in deep in very important ways. As far as our institutions and the culture of Black Americans that we created our music, our churches, our fashion sense, our communities, our athletic prowess, you know, go down the list of things that we've created our fraternities and sororities or HBCUs, that to create our own mooring, and that is the Black American culture, the culture that is appropriated on a daily basis throughout the globe, by everyone who looks like anyone, but I was really unmoored from both of those things.

My father was from Africa, I didn't know what that meant. And I didn't know much about it. In my absence from him, my longing for him. And my grandmother's passing, which I described and never really being able to reconnect to her who I saw appropriately or not, as the key to the connection to that. The piece of me so unmoored from that and but then also unmoored from the Black American experience, yes, and not knowing that and that's where several of these men come in and hook me link me. Whether it's Joseph Jacob and his authentic experiences growing up as a black boy in Washington, DC. And his father as a Howard professor, his mother's an elementary school teacher, you know, really connected into the black experience in this country or his brother, my aunt and uncle Stephen who connect me to the black church and I literally as you know, I tell the journey of my entrance in closer connection to God through the Mount Pleasant Baptist church than I attend with them as a young man, or is whether it's Khalfani my friend that I meet peering through the chain link fence in fifth grade, watching him play basketball, which it has always been in come to be synonymous with Black excellence, as I described in the book is so important has played a such a important role in my life.

And I go on and on Jay Fletcher exposing me to August Wilson and Seven Guitars and other culture and arts side of our history. So I get these moorings, each of these men is not only fathering me and connected me, they're also linking me, Dean Sanwoola, who literally buys me the ticket and takes me to Nigeria, which helps me begin to reconnect to that part of my heritage. So I think these men, these relationships taken on board, kind of aimless, you know, flopping around someone who could, I could have flopped in any direction and helped tie me down and connect me to not just anything, because you can get more into a lot of bad things now finally goes down the path of drugs and death that I described, but more to positive outlets and understanding of our community. So I was really fortunate to have that, but I think on board was the right word, because that's how I felt.

Omkari Williams 31:01

I don't think that white people generally understand that experience, because there's so much connection, there's so much history, they can trace their lineage back a really long way here or on one or both sides of their family and their people have been here or somewhere else, and they know the story. And there's so much that gets taken away when you can't do that, when you don't know your story. And that being more rooted is such a profoundly important thing in terms of, I think, in terms of our ability to just sort of take a stamp, and we need to find those pieces, and reclaim them for ourselves. And it's a challenge. It's a challenge. But it's a worthy challenge. So I like that a lot.

Will Jawando 31:57

If I can do one thing for our young Black children. And there's efforts to do this is like I think our Jewish brothers and sisters have a great model of teaching and taking back to their land of ancestry and programmatically creating almost rites of passage, which many of our organizations have done in other ways. But the physical connection and trip, you know, if every black child knew that they had in their future, a connection to the homeland of their ancestors and learning. And I think it could have a huge impact. And it's one of the things I think there's ancestry.com and Black history. So those are all efforts at trying to draw those connections. But I think it's a really powerful piece, to your point that as Americans, we're the folks who don't have that.

Omkari Williams 32:44

No. And I went to South Africa and Swaziland, and I don't think that that is where my ancestors are from. But still, just the experience of being in Africa was profound in ways that touched me to this day, and that I will never really be able I don't think to adequately explain. It was an incredible experience. One that I would like to repeat if this pandemic will ever go away. We'll see. Our time is getting short. But I want to ask you a couple more things. I definitely want to ask you about my brother's keeper, because that's a beautiful project. And would you tell us about that? Because you helped create it.

Will Jawando 33:31

Yes. So part of my time working with President Obama was chapter six, one of my seven black fathers. And I think another point about this book, the through line is that we need this fathering and mentorship all throughout our lives. And I need Mr. Williams at 9, I need Barack Obama at 25, I needed both. And they all gave me very different things that helped me become who I am and on my journey to wholeness. But one of the things I had the pleasure of working on and kind of helping to conceptualize and implement was My Brother's Keeper, which is a national effort to improve life outcomes for Black men and boys, and not just Black men and boys for boys and young men of color, as also Latino boys involved, and recognizing that there's a unique challenge and opportunity within those populations.

And it had a policy side to it, key intervention points like reading by third grade, graduating high school on time, not having negative interactions with the criminal justice system, going to college and being career ready. We know that there's challenges along the continuum. And it sought to have policy interventions, but also to create a space for communities to sprout up around the country. And now it's managed by the Obama Foundation to mentor and guide these young men and boys of color to make those key interventions. And it's something that was created by President Obama and is still living in the foundation and it's really core to my work as a human being as a policymaker, as a lawyer, as a father, or husband, to try to create pathways and opportunity for all people, but particularly those who have been marginalized and have had more significant challenges, like boys and men of color, to live out their full potential, you know, like my friend Kalfani didn't get the ability to. And so it's really core to what I think it's good for not only these communities, and individuals, but for our nation as a whole.

Omkari Williams 35:30

Yeah, I think sometimes people overlook that all of these things intersect, you cannot have a healthy country. If you have unhealthy pockets of the country that are so profoundly being demoralized and targeted, the whole country will rise and fall as the whole country. Absolutely. And I think that, especially now, with the January 6, select committee doing its work, we really are seeing how critical it is that we get back to understanding we can have different opinions, but there's only one set of facts. And I'm actually curious about something that happened to you on election night in 2008, when Obama won his first election, because I think it speaks to this, would you tell us about that experience and what you think it says about where we are in America right now and what we need to do to make real the promise of this country.

Will Jawando 36:40

Absolutely, I worked in Akron, Ohio for six months or so during the 2008 election, and lived with a great host family, white family. We had kids at school, they had spare bedrooms, and they offered support or housing. And I'd live with them and had been there. And while I did the work in Ohio, and we won Ohio, the first time the Democrat had won Ohio since John F. Kennedy is a big deal. And we were elated when obviously, President Obama was announced the winner of the show, and my wife had come to live and stay for the last week or so and help out on the campaign. And we were taking the trash down at the house was probably midnight or so. Because this was like my house. Now you know, I've been there for six months, and I knew the schedule, and we're taking the trash out. And so and just in a celebratory fashion, just kind of talking about how excited we were. And the next door neighbor, a middle aged white man was also taking his trash down and heard our excitement, and said something to the effect of “well I guess racism is over now”. That kind of gruff,, you know, like, you know, angrily.

And I just remember just being taken aback. You know, we were just in pure jubilation, you know, probably a little louder than we should have been at midnight, but excited. And just talking about this historic moment in our nation's history. In here, here was this gentleman, who, in the midst of that, if you remember what that moment was, like I do, in the midst of that moment was so angry and bitter about what had happened, that it just really, for me was a foreshadowing of what had been described by some as the white lash or the resurgence of things that have always been a part of who we are, that were capitalized upon by Trump, and so many others to just deny our history and to really perpetuate this, what I think is actually the big lie.

We know the big lie about the election. You know, President Biden won the election, but the real lie is that when someone else does well, I do worse. Yes, that's the real lie. And I think that at the core of everything we're seeing is that there's these takers, and they don't look like me, and they're taking something that was mine, and they don't deserve it. And all those things, whether it be immigrants, or black people, or women or, you know, go down the list, it's this vision of this homogeneous, white, Protestant country that is dominated by white men that never was, and never should be. So I didn't know all of that then. But it just as I think back on it, I didn't know that there was something bubbling I didn't know what it was, for me to shape it would take and here we're still living with it as with January 6, but I wouldn't be surprised if that guy was out there that day with just the visceral nature of his response to our jubilation about this historic moment in our nation's history.

Omkari Williams 39:38

Yeah, I mean, it's disheartening, truthfully, and because I don't want to send listeners away, ready to just go lie down for a month. I want to ask you, what gives you hope, what makes you feel that the work you're doing matters and is valued, and it's worth doing

Will Jawando 40:02

Context and understanding our history gives me hope. Because I think about moments, we have never been true to our founding ideals here as a nation, you know, or as people as human beings, not just our young nation, this experiment in democracy that's under attack and struggling right now. But we have made progress. And it's been hard fought. And as Frederick Douglass would say that there's been struggle to achieve that progress. And we are in a moment of struggle now. And we take two steps forward, and sometimes one or two steps back before we move forward again. And that's the nature not only of our country, but of just history.

And I think I am heartened by what I've just seen in my lifetime, for example, in that same moment, even though that man felt that way, we did accomplish something that was amazing. And that has birthed so much, you know, there's whole generations of children and people that voted for me here at Maryland, just this week, that have not known a country without a person of color, and either the presidency or vice presidency. And that's possible. It's not odd to them. It's not something that they can't conceptualize. And that is progress. And not everyone's there. And we're struggling. And there's great disparity and disconnection. But I think at its core, there are many people who want to move forward and realize that when we all do better, we all do better.

Are our systems in the shape they need to be to uphold those ideals and principles. No, but I do think, at the core of this country, there is a general bending of the arc towards justice, as Dr. King would say. And that gives me hope, because I see it in young people that I speak to in my job, I see it in our community, I see it in what's being written by so many people and talked about, I think that we just have to remain hopeful. Because if you look at our history, if we were to give in and forfeit, that wouldn't be true to who we are either. And so it's not going to be easy. But I think about as Isabel Wilkerson says the 12 and a half generations of our ancestors that woke up, went through life, died, and did that over hundreds of years. Yes, that in that 12 and a half generation, it was achieved, and it wasn't full and still isn't. So you have to hope you have to be just as determined and hopeful in that period, even if you're not going to see it and realize you might not see it, but do your part and pass that on. And that's I think all that any of us can do is just push and hope to pass it on to someone else who continues to do that, so that progress can be made.

Omkari Williams 42:42

I agree. I end all my conversations by asking for three things, three simple things that listeners can do to make a difference. So what are three things that you would like listeners to do? I think people are desperate for direction right now.

Will Jawando 43:03

Yeah, well, I'll keep it in the context of my book, because I could probably go a lot of places with that. I would say one, think about and write down the people in your life that fathered you that bothered you, that guided you, that made you who you are, who are your seven, your your five, or your 10, write that list down and then reach out to them and let them know what they meant to you. And the impact they had. One of the things I was most struck by, in researching this book and writing it, was that many of my father's who are alive didn't know they were having the impact on me that they did. And so I think there's value in that, then do an assessment. Who are you? Who are you that for? And this is particularly obviously for Black men and boys, but anyone, any relationship, you know when or who you are, you can do this. And if you can't write that list down, make a resolution to become that for other people. I think one of the other things I tried to do in this book is that you don't have to be perfect. None of these men are perfect. None of us are perfect. They all give me different things. They just gave me intentional connection for whatever period of time and frequency that they were in my life and it was transformative. And I think for Black men and boys in particular it has superhuman power within us is the power to change and save lives all of us. And so I would just say that would be my wish. And I think if we do that the world would be a lot of a better place that village would be revived. And you'd have healthier whole people who are connected and are able to achieve their full potential which ultimately will help all of us.

Omkari Williams 44:45

Thank you. Those are beautiful and gratitude is always a good place to start. Thank you so much. Well, I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Your book warmed My heart which desperately needs it right now as we're struggling through all that we're struggling through. So I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Will Jawando 45:09

Thank you. Thank you, Omkari. And thank you for creating this platform

Omkari Williams 45:14

You're quite welcome, wills book, and this conversation with him really reinforced for me how important it is that we have mentors in our lives and that we mentor others. None of us gets through this experience alone. And when we can draw in the resources that we have as a collective, we are so much more powerful, we can use our energies in such a much more effective way. And I hope that this conversation has inspired you to, as Will suggested, look for the people who touched your life in that way, and then become a person who touches the lives of others in this way. Thank you so much for listening. I will be back with another episode of stepping into truth very soon. And until then, remember that change starts with story, so keep sharing yours.